#vanguard spoilers

[revvethasmythh]

I think it's inevitable that a certain group of people will take Orym's statement about not being able to put down the lens he see the world through as further proof that his perspective is subjective and therefore untrustworthy as it applies to the Vanguard, but imo it serves as a stronger indictment toward those who are able to view the Vanguard as anything other than awful and predatory and murderous. Other people have the luxury of being able to see this through another lens if they so want to--Orym cannot. Because once a group like this has murdered your family, for the sake of a practice run no less, a test, it is impossible to view the situation in any other way. He is walking proof of the harm that the Vanguard does. His loved ones have been deemed "necessary collateral damage." His lens is not one that can or should be set aside in the assessment of the Vanguard, because if they are willing to commit such heinous crimes and excuse them as necessary collateral for ends that are so uncertain, then they are fundamentally not an organization that can be reasoned with or even should be sympathized with

[jennydolfen]

Demons run when a good man goes to war

[utilitycaster]

one more thing (started to put this on the previous post but realized it applies to CR too) but between CR and D20 discourse, why are so many people surprised when US-based actual play shows are coming out with the message of "being angry and resentful and using your pain as an excuse makes you prone to radicalization into a violent cult with little regard for the lives of others, and that is not good of you" and what does it say about them that they keep trying to argue against this.

[lunarrolls]

deanna seeing and recognizing ashton’s sharp worry for fcg immediately because she sees it in the mirror every day traveling with frida and instantly just knowing to trust them is so important to me, and likewise ashton recognizing her internal conflict on sight because they spent so long lost, knowing she was helping all their family while they weren’t there and offering her this one affirmation and a hug (ASHTON. OFFERED HER A HUG. ashton “don’t touch me if you don’t know me” greymoore OFFERED HER A HUG) to reassure her that whoever she wants to be is enough is SO SPECIAL TO ME!

[cochineal-leviat]

Rest in Pieces, King

This is one of my favourite memes simply because of its energy. The pose also fits well because the guy in the picture already does a scissor-like hand sign, and Siffrin, throughout the game, makes the snip-snip gesture when they attack and in his portrait/fighting art.

This is honestly what I felt after I finally defeated King. He is a wonderful antagonist and end boss, but gods, do I want to punt him. And don't worry! The Head Housemaiden didn't bury King. The grave is symbolic since Vangaurdians, from my understanding, are quite respectful - even to horrible people. Siffrin is just a little shit with a personal vendetta.

(I finally see why the kid who is interested in wizards thought Siffrin was a wizard. I didn't see the correlation until I had to draw the hat in a looking down angle. Siffrin reminds me more of a Snufkin than a wizard. Which is hilarious because Siff is not anything like Snufkin)

Remaking memes is strangely relaxing. I think I will keep doing this. It's fun.

Also, Siffrin through the entire game.

This guy's riddled with self-loathing.

[caeslxys]

Zephrah actively postpones ruidusborn births. It is believed that the actual number of ruidusborn in exandrian history is much larger than has been officially recorded because the stigma of it was so intense that people lied about it. Alyxian, one of the few recorded ruidusborn heroes of the calamity who received direct blessings from three different prime deities (our very own Changebringer, the Archheart, and the Moonweaver) , has been all but forgotten (read: likely erased) by history.

The Archive of knowledge that revealed the truth of Predathos and Ruidus was never some forgotten thing—it was intentionally hidden by the elites in Vasselheim. And we have no idea how long they have been operating with that knowledge. We have no idea what they have been doing with that knowledge, what silent wars have been waging for years or decades or centuries. But we saw what they were willing to do, in Hearthdell. We saw the violence and suppression they were willing to commit. We saw the pettiness of the exandrian pantheon in the Dawnfather’s response to Deanna’s: “Are you worth saving?”. In the Changebringer’s manipulative change of course in her pleas to FCG. In the Wildmother’s rejection of Opal. In the knowledge we have that Imogen spent so much of her miserable time in Gelvaan begging the gods to aid her to no avail—just for Kord to reach out only to demand that she not let them down.

Liliana’s point that Vasselheim and the other faithful elite of the world will hunt ruidusborn down to negate even the potential of this happening again isn’t new, it isn’t something this solstice and the machinations surrounding it caused, and it isn’t some unsubstantiated, fearful claim—it has been happening.

The vanguard—and Liliana—are unequivocally wrong in their means. But can you really fault them in their desire? Can you really fault the conclusions they have drawn from the experiences they have lived? If you spend your entire life being rejected by the people and the pantheon of your world for means you could not possibly control, would you not seek out someone and somewhere that would accept you? And if you found it, if some being that has been connected with you your whole life welcomed you home and wrapped you in an embrace that felt like your mother’s and says that it is starving; well, aren’t you, too?

There is likely a holy war brewing. At the end of it all, is it truly the sole fault of the people and not the organizations and society that expelled them?

[cassafrasscr]

Lilliana: Predathos is just using Ludinus as a means to its own ends. 🙂

Me: *screaming* THEN HOW IS PREDATHOS ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE GODS YOU CLAIM ARE MANIPULATIVE TYRANTS?!?!

[grape-eating-vampire]

[ariadne-mouse]

new boy band just dropped

[aspiringwarriorlibrarian]

Liliana is really fucking rich talking about how the Ruby Vanguard are necessary cause "they will hunt us down" as though Ruidusborn haven't e on Exandria for all of recorded history before the Ruby Vanguard turned them into walking bombs.

"We'll be free" Are the Ruidusborn who are mind controlled into attacking their own friends and allies "free"? Will killing the gods "free" those Ruidusborn? You really think an empire built on mind control will let anyone live free once the only threat to their reign is gone? The bormodos are untouched by the gods under the veil of Predathos. Ask them how free they feel.

[densitywell]

every time!

[somewhatsentientspellbook]

ludinus scrying on bells hells, realising 80% of his 1000-year-long plan was pointless:

[happycattail]

There's other Ruidusborn like this kid in the Vanguard. Called there by a power they don't understand. A yearning. They're not fighting for Ludinus's cause. They just want to belong, to understand. Just like Imogen. Just Like Bor'Dor. It's not black and white.

[utilitycaster]

You know what's interesting to me? For all people keep claiming at every juncture that perhaps Bells Hells will come around on the gods and see the harm they do (which, as discussed extensively, is, half the time, simply not intervening) not only have they never done so, but also they never quite cross the line into saying the party should join the Ruby Vanguard or aid them - and indeed, they defend against it - so what does this achieve? It feels like they're asking for a story in which the party stands idly by, which isn't much of a story nor, if I may connect this briefly to the real world, a political stance anyone should be proud of.

That's honestly the frustration with the gods and the "what if the Vanguard has a point" conversations in-game. What do we do then? Do we allow the organization that will murder anyone for pretty much any reason that loosely ties into their goals run rampant? The group that (perhaps unwittingly, but then again, Otohan's blades had that poison) disrupted magic world-wide, and caused people who had the misfortune to live at nexus points to be teleported (most, as commoners, without means of return). While also fomenting worldwide unrest?

Those were the arguments before the trip to Ruidus; with the reveal of the Vanguard's goals to invade Exandria, the situation becomes even more dire. Do you let the Imperium take over the planet?

And do the arguments against the gods even hold up? If Ludinus is so angry at them for the Calamity, what does it say that he destroyed Western Wildemount's first post-Calamity society for entirely selfish means? (What does it say about the validity of vengeance as a motivator?) What does it say that Laudna told Imogen she could always just live in a cottage quietly without issue before the solstice even happened? (Would this still be true if the Imperium controls the world?) What does it say that when faced with a furious, grieving party and the daughter she keeps telling herself was her reason for all of this, Liliana can't provide an answer to the question of what the gods have done other than that their followers will retaliate...for, you know, the Vanguard's endless list of murders. (That is how the Vanguard and Imperium tend to think, huh? "How dare your face get in the way of my boot; how dare you hit me back when I strike you.") She can't even provide a positive answer - why is Predathos better - other than "I feel it", even though Imogen and Fearne know firsthand that Predathos can provide artificial feelings of elation. Given all the harm Ludinus has done in pursuit, why isn't the conclusion "the gods should have crashed Aeor in such a way that the tech was unrecoverable?"

Even as early as the first real discussion on what the party should do, the fandom always stopped short of saying "no, Imogen's right, they should join up with the people who killed half the party," it was always "no, she didn't really mean it, she just was trying to connect with her mother." Well, she's connected with her mother, and at this point the party doesn't even care about the gods particularly (their only divinely-connected party member having died to prevent the Vanguard from killing all of them). So they will stop the Vanguard; as Ashton says, the means are unforgiveable. As Laudna says, it's not safe to bet on Predathos's apathy. As Imogen says, she's done running; the voice that she used to think of as a lifeline belongs to someone she doesn't trust. So I guess my question is: if they're stopping the people who are trying to kill the gods (and defense of the gods isn't remotely their personal motivation)...do you think the next phase of the campaign is Bells Hells personally killing the gods? Reconstructing the Aeor tech and hoping none of their allies notice? How does this end? Does your ideology ever get enacted? Or is this entirely moot and pointless and the story ends with Bells Hells saying "well, I'm really glad we stopped the people who [insert list of Vanguard atrocities from above]; none of us follow the gods or plan to, but honestly, the status quo we return to is preferable to whatever nightmare Ludinus had concocted in his violent quest for power and revenge"?

[transfem-octopus]

So I think it’s fairly obvious at this point that the Imperium are planning to invade a colonize Exandria and seek to awaken Predathos in furtherance of their planned colonization of Exandrian.

My Question is how much does Ludinus know? Does he know that his Imperial Allies are pursuing the destruction of Exandria’s Gods so as to weaken its native Empires and make them vulnerable to a military invasion? Is he nothing more than a quisling hoping to curry favor with the Imperium by weakening Exandria.

Or is he completely in the dark about his allies intensions towards his planet. Is he so blinded by his hatred of the gods and his own hubris that he cannot see the forest for the trees? Men often hear what they want and they disregard the rest.

Or does he know what the Imperium is planning but doesn’t care. I’ve said it before I think Ludinus plans not to free Predathos but to consume the God Eater and become greater than the Gods. If that is his plan perhaps he thinks that it is he who is using the Imperium and not vice versa.

Either way there is no way Ludinus plan is not going to blow up spectacularly in his face and Bells Hells are going to have to clean up the mess.

[dumpster-fire-sapphic-failgirl]

Bor’dor, inadvertently, displayed the biggest difference between the Bell’s Hells and the Ruby Vanguard

The Hells have been very deliberate. Kill only the cultists. turn those who can be turned. Orym even felt guilt for the ripples those controlled actions might cause. And yeah, they dropped an airship on the key, but it was Ludy’s shield that caused it to kill most of the vanguard in exchange for preserving his ultimate goal

When it came time to hurt the people that attacked the site, Bor’dor struck indiscriminately. The only person he downed was Prisim, who, in other circumstances, might have been swayed to join his side. (she attacked an avatar of the dawnfather with a fucking demon, for fucks sake)

Collateral damage didn’t matter as long he had a *chance* to hurt those that hurt him. No thought to consequences because there is nothing more important than destroying

so even though most of the Hells don’t give a fuck about the gods, they are still very different on a foundational level

and even if the gods die, it’ll be the Hells cleaning up the mess, because the Vanguard has no plan for after, because the after isn’t important